(This conversation was recorded on March 17, 2025. The transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.) 

Emily Y. Wu: In your speech this morning, you talked about the global changes that you’ve seen in the 30 years since the first time you came to Taiwan, but also that in the past 30 days, the world around us has also changed beyond recognition in light of shifting geopolitical forces.

What has worried you the most in the last 30 days, and is there room for optimism?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: What worries me the most is, I would say, we are approaching a new world order. A new world order where it’s not the rule of law that governs but the rule of the ruthless. A new world order where might makes right, where the big and powerful countries will decide over the heads of the smaller and weaker countries. A world order with three power centers: one in Washington, one in Beijing, and one in Moscow. 

That’s what concerns me the most, and I will devote the rest of my life to counter that world order.

Emily Y. Wu: We’re sitting in Taipei today. What do you see as the significance for you to be in Taiwan on this particular day?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: The victims of that new world order will be Taiwan, Ukraine, and I would say Europe as a whole, because you will have Washington dominating the Western Hemisphere: South America, North America, including Greenland. You will have Moscow dominating the territory of the former Soviet Union, including a sphere of interest in Eastern Europe, and you will have Beijing dominating Southeast Asia. 

The losers in that game will be Europe, Ukraine, and Taiwan. Because there is a clear risk that Trump, for instance, will conclude, “OK, if Putin and Xi Jinping respect my dominance in my sphere of influence, then I will accept their dominance in their sphere of influence.” So they can do what they want with Ukraine and Taiwan. That’s the worst case.

Emily Y. Wu: You spoke about being here to discuss the future of Asia. So, from a European lens, what are you looking for from Asia? What are your expectations from Europe for Asia in the next five, ten years?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: First of all, what I would like to see in Asia and in the Indo-Pacific region is the creation of more multilateral institutions — a more multilateral approach to solving security issues as well as trade issues. And I think the democracies in this part of the world should work more closely together to counter the autocracies like China, for instance. 

I would also like to see bigger investment in your own defense. That's what we have concluded in Europe, and I think the same conclusion goes for Asia, that each individual country must demonstrate a clear commitment to its own security by increasing defense investment and by cooperating closer together. 

Emily Y. Wu: During President Lai Ching-te’s speech, he spoke about a trust diplomacy. So, we hear these words a lot, I think, families of democracies, trust diplomacy. What does that look like and how would you explain it?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: Yeah, for me, trust diplomacy is very much about reliance on alliances and partnerships. You have to trust each other. You have to trust that your allies and your partners will help you, if needed. That's why I established the Alliance of Democracies back in 2017, because I think the world's democracies must work much closer together to counter the advancing autocracies, and then trust diplomacy is that we can actually trust each other. 

That is what is at stake now, because the question is, can we trust President Trump? Can we trust the Americans? And if this trust diplomacy breaks down, then each country will try to hedge its bets. If you cannot trust that the United States will help Ukraine or help Europe, maybe turns its back to former allies and partners. Then you would ask yourself, can I count on the United States? And then trust diplomacy breaks down.

So for me, to my mind, trust diplomacy is first and foremost that you can trust your allies when you need their help. 

Emily Y. Wu: How do you communicate that to a domestic voter? There’s increasing distrust in politicians and in the mass media. How do you re-establish or rebuild this trust from voters?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: First of all, I think democratically elected leaders should be much more efficient to address the real concerns of their electorate. So, the growth of extremist groups on the right as well as on the left is due to the fact that many voters feel that the elected leaders did not take seriously their concerns about immigration or economic inequality, inflation, unemployment, you mention it. So the first condition is that your leaders are expected to deliver efficiently on what you are, what you are preoccupied with. 

Next, you also have to keep your pledges, your promises. So if you promise your electorate one thing, then you have to live up to that promise. I think that's also a part of trust building. And then finally, you also have to raise awareness about the risk of fake news. You have to mobilize a critical approach to news you are receiving through social media or whatever it might be. Don't believe the first news you receive. Fact check. So I think raising awareness of the risk of fake news is also important if you are to build trust.

Emily Y. Wu: Looking ahead to the 2025 Copenhagen Democracy Summit in May that you organize, how must this summit in 2025 be different?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: Yeah, it will be different. Previous years, we have really reached out to broad parts of the world and reached out to democracy activists all over the globe. This year, we will have to focus a bit more on what I would call the “hard defense of democracy.”

So we will actually focus a lot of Ukraine, defending Ukraine, and also defending Taiwan. So Taiwan, Ukraine will be a focal point in our democracy summit in Copenhagen in May this year. Among the issues we will raise is how, how do we finance this much stronger defense? How do we attract private capital in investing in a much bigger and much stronger industrial defense, industrial base? So that will be our focal point this year. How can we defend our democracy in Taiwan, in Ukraine and elsewhere?

Emily Y. Wu: In your speech, you talked about “collective weakness”. So, China's leader Xi Jinping is watching Ukraine, and “We must not send a signal by our collective weakness that aggression plays off.” What did you mean by that, and what does this collective weakness look like in terms of international governing systems?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: What I alluded to was the way we will be handling the Ukraine war, because there will be a clear link between Ukraine and Taiwan, in that respect. Xi Jinping would conclude that if Putin can get away with taking territory from Ukraine, then he can get away with taking Taiwan. So I see a very clear link. And if Putin gets success in Ukraine because of our weakness, it would send an extremely dangerous signal to autocrats in other parts of the world. Xi Jinping, Kim Jong Un, the priests in Tehran, etc, etc. That's why we have to, to keep a firm stance, stand by the Ukrainians, provide security guarantees to Ukraine so that they are protected against a future Russian attack. If this will be the outcome of the war, then it would also send a signal to Xi Jinping about being careful not to try to change status quo across the Taiwan Strait. 

Emily Y. Wu: Is there an alternative to the United Nations Security Council?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: In the short term, no, but I think in a longer term perspective, we should consider carefully a structural change of the United Nations. 

The United Nations reflect the world as it was in 1945 with the United States as really a dominant power. But since then, other powers have grown, have risen, like Germany in Europe, like Japan in Asia, like Brazil in South America, etc, etc. You have new powers on the globe, which we should also include much stronger in the way the Security Council is working. 

I mean, in the current Security Council, Russia and China have so-called veto right. So they can block all decisions in the United Nations that go against their interest. And that makes actually the United Nations impotent, useless, because we cannot pass any resolution. 

So I think we need a reform of the United Nations, but as it requires the consent of both Russia and China, it's more or less impossible in the short term. So yes, long term, we should reform the United Nations. Short term, we have to deal with what we do have.

Emily Y. Wu: I think that’s why it’s all the more important the work that you're doing—gathering the different partners of democracy, through your foundation and through the summit, for everyone to find a way—a stronger way—of working together. One final question: you were first elected into the parliament when you were 25 years-old. The world is a very different place today for young leaders. What advice do you have for newly-elected leaders on how to navigate the new world order?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: Yeah, I would say, of course, coming from a democracy, growing up with a democratic tradition, my prime advice to young leaders would be: Keep that vision of working to solidify freedom and democracy. Outline a clear strategy to achieve your goal, and based on that, clear tactics and a very clear communication. That's the point I've always followed: clear vision, clear strategy, good tactics and clear communication. 

Emily Y. Wu: Thank you very much.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: You’re welcome.

This episode is produced by Emily Y. Wu. Zack Chiang is our production coordinator. Editing by Wayne Tsai. Transcription by Dana Blatte.