(The transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.)

WU: This new set of regulations is the result of advocacy that you and your team at Crossroads have been fighting for the past three years. So, first of all, congratulations on this milestone. 

CHANG: Thank you.

WU: We'll talk about this new set of legal changes and what this means going forward for accessibility in Taiwan for both the general public and for foreign residents specifically. So, now let's begin with what comes into effect on June 30.

CHANG: Generally speaking, the reform that we've managed to solidify into law recently opens up both disability certification and long-term care access for permanent residents, or people who hold an APRC - Alien Permanent Resident Certificate card - for a total residency period of 10 years.

WU: 10 years and on. Why is 10 years the benchmark here?

CHANG: I think it really was a number that, from a policy-making kind of considerations, there was fear among policymakers that if we were to open something up like this, it would be opening up the floodgates for people from all over. And there was a concern whether the financial budget would be able to accommodate for so many people.

Overall, it's a first step. In the sense that ten years seemed like a reasonable, at least from the policy maker consideration, ten years seemed like a good enough time to present foreign residents' commitment to Taiwan and their contributions to Taiwan: if they paid enough taxes, etc., to be able to qualify for this. 

WU: What was the number of years you had in mind?

CHANG: In an ideal world, Taiwan being not a poor country, we'd be able to protect all foreign residents who need it. Of course, we would also have to be very careful about this, because there are financial and budget considerations too. There are people who try to game the system, and there needs to be a certain level of commitment to Taiwan that needs to be proven.

So from a human rights perspective, I would argue that anybody who has residency is afforded these protections. From a policy-making side, I might not think that way. I might think that, ‘Okay, maybe five years once they get a permanent residency, or just as long as they've not broken any laws and paid their taxes, paid their dues.’ People who need help need help. And that's something that the government, in an ideal world, should be recognizing.

WU: Just to compare what the requirement is around the region: In Hong Kong, it's seven years. In Korea, it's open to all permanent residents. In Japan, it's also open to non-permanent residents. In Singapore, disability schemes have always included permanent residents since 2002.

CHANG: Again, we recognize that around the world, laws might be different. From the beginning of this advocacy campaign, there was a recognition that ‘Let's just do something that is politically viable and get it the first step in, something that won't have too much legislative pushback, and to get something down.’ And then the strategy is to widen it and make it more accessible afterwards. Better have something than nothing.

WU: I know how difficult it's been for you guys. So the fact that you even were able to put this on the table and to get this passed… Foreign residents in Taiwan - ARC plus APRC together count for 4.5% of the total population - that's not exactly a number that gets you a lot of representation in the legislature.

CHANG: Especially since immigrants don't have voting rights.

WU: Let's put aside the ten-year requirement. Who's actually impacted? Who's covered and who's not covered? These are just professionals, right? This is another requirement. I'm now reading the article of the law: ‘foreign professionals, foreign specialist professionals, senior professionals, spouses, children.’

CHANG: So, kind of an interesting thing around this, kind of where the gray area part of it begins.

WU: Yeah, please explain.

CHANG: So, [it was] part of political strategy that this was placed under the Act for the Recruitment and Employment of Foreign Professionals. But since two, three years ago, permanent residency was actually a path that was also open to migrant workers as well. And there seems to be some kind of gray area between whether, what about the people who are migrant workers who become permanent residents? Although their path is a bit more convoluted.

WU: Is there a path for them?

CHANG: There is a path, it's being used, but a lot of people are also finding it very difficult and challenging from our talks with the community. Because a lot of it requires a lot of certification by your own employer as a mid-level technician. So there’s a lot more obstacles if you're a migrant worker. And, ultimately, the question right now is technically, permanent residents - no matter where - qualify. But since it's listed on the Foreign Professionals Act, there's kind of a gray area around that right now.

WU: So it doesn't cover everyone who is on the APRC. For example, if you are married to a Taiwanese person and you stay here long term, you're on an APRC through the marriage route. For example that does not cover them?

CHANG: So again, this is the part where there still leaves some room for interpretation. We won't know until people actually start applying, because there's a question of whether permanent residents are really - once you turn permanent resident, whether it's categorized according to where you get your permanent residency. So yes, there are some questions around that.

WU: In 2025, right before the amendments were about to be made, you spoke on TaiwanPlus News about a particular allowance that should be covered by this new regulation, but it is not accessible. Specifically it has to do with living allowances that's tied to household registrations. 

CHANG: So, disability certification, the way you can see it, is the official recognition that you have some sort of disability. Before this law was passed, if you weren’t of Taiwanese or Japanese nationality, you were not able to qualify for disability certification. So people were going to the hospital asking their doctors. And the doctors would be like: ‘We can only do so much, but technically under the law, we can't give you the certification.’

WU: Japanese, because at the time there was a reciprocal [act] with Japan. And up until 2023, this included only Japan.

CHANG: Right. It was just a reciprocal action by the Ministry of Health and Welfare. Overall, what we realized through this campaign was that we needed a law, and that it wasn't just relying on the leeway and the good graces of the Ministry of Health and Welfare, and that we should have a law that covers everybody here. Going back to the certification part of it - Yes, the certification does open up to many benefits and services.

The problem right now, the next step of this campaign is that a lot of foreign residents who have disability certification are still not able to get the bulk of financial subsidies and economic subsidies. It comes very costly if you are disabled, you have to go weekly, monthly, regular visits to the hospital, lots of equipment involved, home care. But, under our understanding so far from our community, if you don't have a household registration, you're unable to qualify for any financial subsidy.

WU: For any?

CHANG: Any. The reasoning behind this that we're told by the Ministry of Health and Welfare and the Ministry of Interior, is that… because these subsidies are reliant on their economic condition, status, and because they're foreign residents, the thought process is that we can't check their financial status overseas: how much wealth they have, how many assets. So we are unable to make this calculation to how many subsidies and financial support they can receive here.

WU: As a note on household registration… So this is every Taiwan citizen's official government-registered address. For every address, it lists the head of the house, income. It’s an ownership structure, not a residency structure, which means if you're renting your apartment, your landlord may not let you add your name to the registration. And how that impacts your child, for example, because your school district is tied to your household registration; elections, your voting ballots are tied to your registrations. And this is where government subsidies come in. 

So how do foreigners get added? Is there a way to get added to the household registration?

CHANG: Not currently, because according to the household registration laws, if you are a foreign national, you can't legally be added to the national household registration.

WU: Even say you are…

CHANG: Married.

WU: Married.

CHANG: No. So this also leads to a lot of other issues. For example, ownership of property. Even if you're married to a Taiwanese spouse, your name technically can't be on the household registration for that property.

WU: You’re in the spouse field…

CHANG: Yes.

WU: …under your spouse's name.

CHANG: But you're not actually on the household registration.

WU: You don’t have an actual entry yourself.

CHANG: So, there's also still a lot of questions. We've been chatting with people from our various communities who've bought properties with their Taiwanese spouses in Taiwan, and they're still scratching their heads and wondering: What happens if, God forbid, my partner dies? What happens? And what is the ownership process? Because I'm not on the household registry.’ 

So actually, Crossroads voted, our community voted to start a new initiative, which is the establishment of a parallel household registration system for permanent residents.

WU: Parallel household registration?

CHANG: Yes. So, to amend the laws to add foreign residents or permanent residents onto the current household registration system, [it] would be nearly impossible. One, because not just your residency rights are tied to household registration, but your political rights as well. And in order to kind of change that to squeeze permanent residents in that framework, it wouldn't work, nor would it be appropriate. 

So, what we're saying is that if we're looking at household registration system as purely an administrative system, it's really just for the Ministry of Interior, for the country to keep track and record its citizens and document permanent residents, because it's a growing population. Even as our national population is decreasing, our permanent resident population is increasing at a faster rate.

WU: So right now there's just short of 40,000 permanent residents. 

CHANG: Actually, it's almost 50,000 now. 

WU: Okay, that’s great.

CHANG: The growth of it has particularly accelerated over the last ten years. And it shows that people are committing to Taiwan because they've chosen to stay here for the required minimum amount of time. They have certain financial thresholds that they have to meet. Of course, they can't break any laws; they have to pay their taxes as all immigrants do.

WU: Everybody pays taxes.

CHANG: Everybody pays taxes.

WU: People who don’t have ARCs but take in Taiwan income pay their taxes.

CHANG: You’re correct. But permanent residents, when they're applying for permanent residency, also have financial thresholds that they have to meet as well. So, it's a good sign for Taiwan, even as we are looking at a population challenge –I like to say– is that there still continues to be an accelerated interest in people to come into Taiwan.

So this is something that we are working on and pushing on. We've already consulted with various legislators on this. For the most part, the legislators are also very interested in this, but they would also see that having such a wide and expansive law is definitely not necessarily the most pragmatic thing right now, especially given the state of the legislature. But overall, the strategy is to look at individual issues right now. Where are all these inequalities happening, and what are the firsthand experiences of this?

Actually, tomorrow we are going to be meeting with a legislator to talk about education access. Foreign residents in Taiwan who are finding it difficult for their children to enroll in schools because they're not on household registration, you mentioned that earlier. Exactly whether they have an equal opportunity to get into the school districts that they reside in, that also remains a lot, a lot of questions right now. 

WU: I do want to get to the mind-wrangling you have to do to push new legislation through. But before that, just to wrap up on the section of the amendments that will be enacted on June 30. 

CHANG: I'd also like to bring up another example, if I may. Disability certification is not just about getting certain benefits and services, but recognition. I want to really put that very clearly. 

For example, someone from our community is a South African entrepreneur who is visually impaired. When he went to a main Taiwanese association for visually impaired people and asking to see whether he could get some certain type of assistance, but because he was successful entrepreneur, they said, ‘Well, you could, we'd love for you to teach here to share your knowledge here, but unfortunately, since you're not have a disability certification, and we are a nonprofit organization of government funding, you can't actually provide you with any benefits or services. So, you could teach here, you can share your experience as a visually impaired entrepreneur and share all your wealth, your resources, your knowledge, share your experiences, but you can't actually partake in any of these benefits and services.’

Another example is where he tried to get a crosswalk friendlier for visually impaired people.  Eventually the city came over and was like: ‘Let's take a look and see.’ And when they noticed that he was a foreign resident, they said, ‘Whoops, sorry, we can't do it. Although you're obviously visually impaired, because you don't have the certification, we can't do this for you. You're just going to have to tough it out.’ So that's kind of the importance of having that official recognition in Taiwan.

WU:  For the people who can benefit from what's to come on June 30, what's [their] first step? How should we keep an eye on the effectiveness of the law to see if it's working?

CHANG: Currently, the process is if you have someone who has a disability who needs care, who's above the age of 65, the first thing you need to go to, of course, is your doctor. Individual cases all vary according to your conditions, your needs, your status, your residence. So it's hard to have one streamlined solution for this, but for the most part, it starts with a doctor. 

It's also about making sure your doctor understands this. Because sometimes information doesn't necessarily go down all the way down the chain. It is also very much so that people should be consulting with their doctors. [If] doctors say, ‘Well, I don't think foreign nationals can apply for this,’ and then it's like, ‘No, the laws have changed.’ Make sure that they are able to emphasize that to their doctor. 

Then simultaneously, there's where you start the process of getting your disability certification at the household registration, your local household registration office. Yes, kind of interesting, but that's where you actually get your disability certification. Of course, there's also coordination with the Ministry of Health and Welfare, but that's kind of where the bureaucracy starts; the fun part starts.

But for the most part, from what we've heard so far in the community, those who've actually tried to apply for it have not had much of an issue with that. 

On the second part of your question, how do people make sure that there's progress on this. Use it. If there is a need, make sure you do go apply for it. That's the only way officially to show the government that, ‘Hey, this is a policy that we actually needed.’ If there's no need, if people aren't using it, then it's very easily fell by the wayside.

So again, make sure people know their rights, and to use it accordingly on this, and that's the way to show the government.

WU: In your petition that you put through three years ago, April 2023, there were a lot of stories from individuals and families whose lives had been impeded, slowed down because of the lack of accessibility care. When you first looked into this, what would you say was the severity of this problem?

CHANG: We've kind of been aware of this issue for several years amongst people from our community, but it wasn't until 2023 when we got a message from an American national in Tainan who pointed us in the direction of his friend, who was a French national, lived in Taiwan for 18 years. 

He had been suffering from ALS. And ALS is a terrifying disease. Within the span of one year, his body started to break down, to the point after six months, eight months, nine months, he was completely immobile, and he had no one to take care of him. He couldn't go back to [France]… as people are saying, ‘Oh, why don't you go back to France?’ 

Well, he's been in Taiwan for 18 years, and Taiwan is his home. He ended up having to rely –and this is another important point in this– he had to rely on the daughter of his deceased wife to take care of him, because he had no one else. Overall, it was of course a burden, both time and financially, to the family, but he had nowhere else to turn to. 

The American national who brought this up to us was basically saying, ‘Look, he needs help, we don't know how much time he has in his life, but he's looking at least for some relief, and to also help relieve the burden on his caretakers.’ Because they have to sacrifice their job, their career, everything to help take care of someone who can’t. He couldn't even hire a caregiver, a foreign caregiver, to help them with the process. So we decided let's do something about this.

This ties into the whole picture about trying to make Taiwan a much more internationally inclusive place. And this seemed like a big gap in this, because if we're talking about human rights, we can't not look at our most vulnerable population. So interestingly enough, after the same American national who approached us with this was like, ‘Hey, I know of a legislator who might be interested.’ 

Through that connection, we started to really gain traction. They were like, ‘Wait, how is this even possible too?’ And [the legislator’s] like, ‘Let's get on this and let's try to fix it.’ And so we're very, very happy for their support.

WU: That was Legislator Wang Ting-yu.

CHANG: Yes, he was actually kind of shocked that this was happening. He was like, ‘No problem. This seems like an unintentional gap.’

WU: He's on the Foreign Affairs and National Security Committee.

CHANG: Yes, interestingly. From there, it was like ‘okay, what can we do that is politically feasible and pragmatic, because it's all about getting their first foot in the door.’ The result of this reform was a result of our planning for this. It took several sections of the legislature, of course. The Executive Yuan, when he talked to the Premier at the time, was very supportive. So, with a little bit of hiccups along the way, we also went to the Control Yuan to say, ‘This is a human rights issue. Maybe we need to do something about this.’ 

So, through pushing and prodding, we eventually got to this first step. You mentioned that we did have a petition that was there.

WU: Let's talk a little bit about that process.

CHANG: Yes.

WU: Your petition went live in April 2023. There were some comments that just weren't that nice. 

CHANG: Yes.

WU: What was your sense of what the public sentiment was? What was it that you had to fight through?

CHANG: So working on immigrant issues is kind of interesting… I would say it's kind of different from other issues because you're dealing with a population that has no political rights in this country. That somehow transformed into little interest a lot of times by the general public. 

The interest that we do get from the general public at times is split. You definitely have a lot of wonderful supporters who probably have a little more experience working with, or living with, or [being] friends with foreigners. They kind of have first-hand experiences of, ‘These are just people, they contribute to Taiwan, and we shouldn't be leaving vulnerable people out without help, without assistance. And they're here in Taiwan.’ 

But you also have the voices who are probably a little more fearful. That's where a lot of the vitriol, aside from the trolls who are just there to make life miserable for everybody. But the people who express worry or concern are usually people who probably don't really have a real grasp of policy either.

WU: What’s an example? 

CHANG: Mostly, ‘We can't afford this, Taiwan can’t afford this.’

WU: What were your arguments? What do you say to them?

CHANG: We usually say that, ‘these are tax-paying individuals who've been paying into the system, but they are not allowed what we believe is a fundamental service and benefit and care by society that they've been contributing to for many years of their life.’ 

There are a lot of times those same opposition voices interestingly think that foreigners don't have to pay taxes in Taiwan. So there's a lot of misunderstanding, but there's that knee-jerk reaction whenever it comes to the outsider is that ‘[Why] do we need to take care of them? They should just go back to their country? Why come and suck away at our resources?’ There's always that fear of scarcity. It's not just Taiwan. You can find that around the world every day.

WU: Prior to coming back to Taiwan to set up Crossroads, you worked three years as a legislative aide for a senator in New York, [and before that] as a senior paralegal at a law firm in LA. You're somebody who understands policy, lobbying and advocacy. Were you surprised that accessibility for foreign nationals, the argument had to be included in the talent scheme, in the “let's attract foreigners” scheme, versus the human rights scheme?

CHANG: Yes, when we first learned about it, it was like, ‘Okay, that's an interesting tactic.’ I wouldn't say surprising. Overall, it seemed like, ‘Oh, that's actually a pragmatic strategy for this.’ If that was what it took, if that was the path of least resistance to getting this passed. Keeping in mind that people like Olivier, we needed something as quickly as possible for this. 

WU: Is the hope then that this sets a precedent, and then maybe this could be applied to others too? For example, the other APRCs, or eventually just ARCs in general?

CHANG: Right. I think overall, why we were working with the permanent residence community first also, is because there's not even 50,000 of them so far. Our [...] argument to the government is it's a good way to start testing policies, because you're working with a relatively smaller population. But these are also people who have proven their commitment officially to Taiwan.

A lot of it is - the devils are going to be in the details about how they are implemented and - whether that policy becomes truly successful or not. Then we can talk about and see, from that data, whether we can start applying it [more broadly], whether we can loosen it, and how we go from there.

WU: Do you feel a sense of urgency from the government? If we compare to - earlier I talked about some numbers coming from neighboring countries: Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore. And secondly, what's been your takeaway to why you think Taiwan has been late in implementing these changes?

CHANG: First off, absolute props to the Taiwanese government. There has been an absolute drive and momentum particularly through certain factions of the government, they recognize the issue. 

It was in 2016 that my work in Crossroads began, even though it wasn’t officially registered until 2021, but that was when the process of engaging policymakers, ministries, legislatures began. And just kind of understanding what exactly it means to be an immigrant in Taiwan, and what is their connection to Taiwan, and how is that?

It was over the course of this decade that we're seeing a lot of momentum. But there's also, of course, progress is not always a one-way street. It's not always direct. There are certain things that will come and go. It seems like progress is made, and other things, suddenly like, ‘Oh.’ 

But for the most part, the awareness has been very, very encouraging. And I think it still comes to that question about where is Taiwan's future? What is our relationship with the international community? What is our identity as Taiwanese? Especially as we're being faced with these long-term challenges. According to NDC projections, by 2065, our population will decrease to 12 million people.

WU: National Development Council.

CHANG: By then, about 40% of the population will be above the age of 65, which means also, will this be tenable? And what exactly it means to be Taiwanese in this day and age? 

I think it is also going to be a question that becomes evermore urgent. So [we’re] happy to see the government, as painful as that might be, there's still a drive to learn and do something, and to start preparations, because immigration policy is very difficult. 

And it's also not just about getting people here, it’s about what they do here too. How do they integrate? Education, housing, banking services, etc. How do those all fit into the picture so that people aren't being left behind, and they are integrated, and they don't become a problem to the community. These are all things that require a lot of thinking. A lot of very comprehensive thought to this, but at the same time it needs to be done.

WU: In January 2026, Taiwan officially became a super-aged society, that means more than 20% of the population is over the age of 65. And if we consider WHO numbers: Globally, one in three elders over the age of 60 are disabled. If we look at Taiwan's disability numbers, it's 5.4% – significantly lower than the global average of 16%. If we look at a lot of the requirements, Taiwan is quite strict when it comes to what [the] criteria [are] for being disabled.

CHANG: For sure. Yes, you've done your research. We have currently a little more than 1 million total foreign immigrants or people with foreign residents in Taiwan. So if you take the WHO figure of 16%, that means around 160,000 people may have a disability of some sort, which is a surprising amount.

WU: This includes physical short-term and long-term, and mental disability.

CHANG: Yes. I think it's under the definition of being considered significant disabilities, how they term it. So if we apply that to Taiwan, and we're looking at a million people, maybe. But then it's also who's coming to Taiwan, right? And all the filtration that comes through that policy is about who is allowed to come to Taiwan. 

But as our native population, all [are] aging. Of course, the people who are foreign, our immigrants, are also aging at the same time. So you can't just say, ‘Hey, you're here to work, and once you get a disability, or you're past the age of 65, then bye-bye.’ Most likely, ‘Hey, we're still going to have to take care of them, because they've contributed to Taiwan, they are part of Taiwan now.’

WU: They have families. They own companies.

CHANG: Exactly, exactly. They are contributing a lot.

WU: They’re investing in Taiwan.

CHANG: Exactly. They're also not just economic benefits, but also to the cultural, social fabric of it. But at the same time, we can't put on the mindset of once they get sick or get hit by a car or age, we're simply not just going to turn a blind eye. [...]

WU: What's your conversation like with Taiwanese NGOs that work on disability and accessibility?

CHANG: Overall on our coordination with migrant worker communities, for the most part there are some wonderful migrant worker organizations or advocacy organizations out there. We're basically drawing inspiration from them a lot.

Migrant workers make up 90% of the immigrant population here, so they deal with the bulk of immigrants. But at the same time, they are also not necessarily treated with the same perspective as foreign professionals. [...] From their end, there's a recognition that the progress that we are able to make with foreign professionals acts as a stepping stone for migrant workers, for example, disability and long-term care. 

We were coordinating with that, in the sense that they're like, ‘Wow.’ Foreign professionals will always have some type of inroad; they'll always be looked at a little more favorably as far as policy, but at the same time, whatever progress we can make, they can at least come on us and say, 'Hey, we want that too.’

WU: What about for the general public, Taiwanese communities? Are you able to form a solid alliance with disability groups advocating for disability rights?

CHANG: To be very honest, not really. And I think overall, when you're talking about immigrants, it's hard to really draw interest, especially people who don't necessarily have a stake in it.

As far as policy advocacy, where there hasn't been too much work with others - except for maybe the chambers [of commerce]. They have an interest in this as well, to see whether they can come out in their white paper, and also come out to talk to the government, coordinate the government on that side as well. But aside from local organizations, [...] I think their target audience is mostly native local Taiwanese, right? So it's hard for them to get interested in this.

WU: I remember three years ago, I was talking to a man with a disability, lifelong disability, and [I] asked him about policy changes and advocacy for new laws that so to better serve the disabled community, and he said, ‘Well, right now in the parliament, there is no disabled person in the parliament, so there's no one fighting for us.’

CHANG: Yes, yes. Representation matters.

WU: I want to talk quickly about the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. It's a document that was put together in 2007. Particularly, it says:

“...recognizing that disability is an evolving concept, and that disability results from the interaction between persons with impairments and attitudinal and environmental barriers that hinder their full and effective participation in society on an equal basis with others.” 

I really love the way it said it's an evolving concept. You mentioned this briefly before we began recording, that Taiwan also adopted [the UN Convention]. But a lot of this is really based on a society's interpretation. 

CHANG: Yes

WU: So, what's next for Crossroads? What's next for this set of amendments? 

CHANG: With Crossroads, our general mission, our actual mission, is about creating a much more equal society. Also with disability service and programs, all we're asking for is equality. We're not asking for better benefits for everybody. We're just saying that people can qualify and get the help that they need, that Taiwanese nationals get as well, because they're paid into the same system.

Interestingly, one of the main initiatives that we are working on right now came off through recent discussions with policymakers. And this came in following, actually, around the same time around President Lai’s announcement of the 18 Points, facing the population crisis that he recently announced. 

We were invited to provide our own policy recommendations for facing the population crisis. As part of this, and working with certain legislators, it was also brought up: ‘Why don't we just open birthright citizenship for permanent residents?’ 

Not any foreigner who just comes here to pop off kids. We're not talking about that - that's always the fear, parachute kids and all that. But we're talking about permanent residents. Again, these are people who are committed to Taiwan, [they] have 80% labor rate participation. Why not, for those who have children here, who chose to have a family, incorporate them? Stop holding them at arm's length, and just simply - the child who was born here can become a Taiwanese citizen, just given. 

Overall, it creates a greater incentive for parents to also have a family here.

The second prong of this initiative is [to] open up naturalization without renunciation, taking away the renunciation clause of naturalization for those permanent resident parents. This acts as not about a charity. This is about a strategy for Taiwan. If we're talking about confronting our population crisis. It is about what are the resources we have already, and how do we integrate them into our general strategy? 

As we see, as Taiwan's population is aging and declining, we see an upshoot and acceleration in the growth of permanent residents. And if they're choosing to have their children here, go through the cultural and educational systems here, why are we putting them at arm's length?

WU: They’ve lived here. This is their home.

CHANG: This is their home. And for a lot of people who are born here, they might look different from other Taiwanese classmates they have in their school, but in all in all, their hearts and mind and identity are all Taiwanese. 

The other prong of this is, of course, perhaps seeing how we can also incorporate their parents into this. It's also an incentive to draw permanent residents here. If people are here having families, that's a big commitment, to have children here, to build a life here, to go through the system here. 

In essence, because it is solving a national issue, could we say that this is a special contribution to Taiwan by popping out some kids? We don't know, but there are some arguments to be made here. If there is a lot of sincerity in trying to resolve this issue, let's start seeing what resources we have and integrating them.

WU: Would you say this has been a bipartisan issue?

CHANG: Across the board, we have supporters. From certain parties, we definitely have a lot more interest in this. Especially the legislature we work with, they do see this as not just an economic issue anymore, they see it as a national security issue as well. This is Taiwan's long-term national security.

As our population continues to age, that's going to have a lot of implications about where our natural resources go. Who's going to be in the military? Who's going to be taking care of people versus working in jobs? Where's our economic security? So it raises a lot of questions, and we can no longer kick the can down the road.

WU: Thank you for all of that, and we'll be looking out for your future work at Crossroads as well.

CHANG: Thank you. 

Episode Credit: Host: Emily Y. Wu. Production coordination and recording: Zack Chiang. Research and transcription: Annabelle Hsu. Audio editor: Wayne Tsai.