(The transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.)

Mimi Yu: I'm a child of southern Taiwan, where it's always sunny and the leaves never turn red. I was very lucky to have very supportive parents who didn't know anything about music, but who devoted all of their time and energy into helping me become the musician that I wanted to become.

Emily Y. Wu (Narration): As a teenager Mimi attended the Cleveland Institute of Music. Then Harvard University. Then the Juilliard School where she played as the First Cello.

Mimi Yu: After Harvard, I decided that I needed to keep music in my life [...] I wanted to move to New York. Be an artist. Live the Bohemian life. I was up near Columbia in Washington Heights. The room is probably the size of this table - half of this table. It was so small. It could barely fit my cello. I had to leave the cello at Juilliard in my locker. I had a bed and a desk. I was living like a monk. But I could see the Washington Bridge from my window. Every night I would come back from Juilliard, and just… “I have nothing”. I was dirt poor, a poor musician, but I felt so content that I chose this path. It was a strange feeling. 

One of my cello teachers, Paul Katz, he dropped me off in New York after our summer together. We spent the summer on Shelter Island playing with Mr. Perlman, Itzhak Perlman. [...]

Emily Y. Wu (Narration): Violinists Paul Katz and Itzhak Perlman were her mentors. She worked with Yo-Yo Ma And she wrote two books. All before the age of 25. Then everything changed. Mimi was impacted by depression, so severely that she had to stop playing music. In 2019 she published her third book, “The Unforgetting Body” (因為身體記得). She detailed her recovery from depression and the search for a mindset that prioritized her actual needs. 

Mimi Yu: I was so driven for so long, so ambitious and goal-oriented. Some parts of the journey, I forgot to take care of my body, my mental health, and myself. When I was practicing 12 hours a day, I really wasn't eating that well, or at all. Or when I was very stressed before a concert [...]

Finally one tour I was supposed to go on, I just physically and mentally collapsed and couldn't do it anymore. And I stopped. I decided I’m going to take this time to look into what makes me happy, and how I could have a better balance of what I love.

Emily Y. Wu: In “The Unforgetting Body”, you open with the story of deciding you weren’t going on the tour. You were told, “Are you sure? There's going to be consequences.”

Mimi Yu: Right, I think it's really shocking when I tell people the kind of opportunities that I got to have, the kind of experiences. To turn around and give it up, I think would have been a big shock to a lot of people […]

It's ironic, because as a musician, somehow I failed to listen to my own body. I was so busy listening to the cello and to other people's instruments. The most important instrument that we all have in our life, our one life - the body - I completely ignored it.

Emily Y. Wu: You were 25 years old.

Mimi Yu: I think in our culture, in our societal systems, listening to your body is underrated and underguided [...] I had to spend a lot of time rebuilding and retuning. I had to retune my body through a lot of different exercises, and a lot of different methodologies [...]

In the music world, everybody realizes it's a very cut-throat business. Sometimes people need breaks. Horowitz took a 10-year break and couldn't play. People were very understanding that I needed this time off, and I really appreciated it from the bottom of my heart. I'm sure I caused a lot of logistical difficulties.

The kind of love that the Perlmans poured into us and the community, that’s just so rare and beautiful in this world. We spent a lot of time together. And much of the time, it's really not even about music. It's about how to be a person, and the way that they shaped and cultivated all of us is really remarkable. I encourage everybody to check them out. It's the Perlman Music Program. Every year it's on Shelter Island in Long Island, New York.

Emily Y. Wu (Narration): Today, Mimi’s no longer performing at national concert halls, but she’s the happiest she’s ever been. She’s been sharing her story through her social media, her workshops, speaking engagements, and her podcasts [...] In her book she details her search for a balanced living, through re-tuning her body, healthy living, and Buddhism. 

Emily Y. Wu: In the 2010s, how Taiwanese or Asians talked about mental wellness was so different back here in Taiwan. What was the kind of support that really helped then? I think a lot of Asians go through this, where there's pain that you cannot talk about.

Mimi Yu: That's so interesting. At the time, I'd only had therapists who spoke French and English. In the book, they were featured because I'm eternally grateful to them. [...] When I first got to the U.S. I felt a lot of stigma and shame. There was this little office for cognitive behavior, and I thought, “Oh, only losers go there.” In my traditional thinking, I felt I couldn’t seek help. Later when I started to seek help, they were such great sounding boards. 

What the Asian community provided is the way to connect with the body, and combining that with my Western therapist [...] I think what really struck me is that eventually, I realized we're all whole beings. 

Mental health is only one part of your health. When your body's not feeling well, of course you're not going to be all that happy. So that's where the Asian modalities really helped me in that I started to focus on my body. I started from diet to exercise, trying to make sure that the body feels good. Then when the body feels good, slowly things start to open up.

Emily Y. Wu: Can we talk about your path in finding how to work with your body. A lot of this was through -

Mimi Yu: Traditional Chinese medicine 

Emily Y. Wu: But also getting in touch with Buddhism. You've met anybody from Master Sheng Yen (聖嚴法師) to Master Hsing Yun (星雲法師) to - 

Mimi Yu: Master Cheng Yen (證嚴法師).

Emily Y. Wu: To a Vietnamese monk in France. You've toured all of the monasteries. 

Mimi Yu: I was really trying hard to rebuild. And in rebuilding, I thought, I will just go and find these enlightened people and ask them for advice. All the great Dharma Masters (法師) of the world, Master Cheng Yen (證嚴法師) and Master Hsing Yun (星雲法師) - were all so kind, and each individually gave me great pieces of wisdom. 

When I was in France, this was Thich Nhat Hanh, 一行禪師, Plum Village, near Bordeaux. It wasn't like a monastery, because there were children running around. Paintings by kids. Everybody was like a family, sitting and chanting and singing. Then I saw a French monk, and he looked so joyful. I just looked at him, and I immediately also felt so much joy. That moment kind of struck me, and I realized that enlightened people are just very joyful people. [...] I remember that so vividly, just that sheer sense of pure joy. I think I'm getting closer and closer to that [...]

I think the very top musicians reach a level where music flows through them and we're all just vessels for these beautiful vibrations that could touch people.

Then in the monasteries, the same things could happen in that the teachings are also a kind of vibrations. Those vibrations can make us joyful or can calm us down when we're very agitated. They can make us happier when we're sad. Same thing with therapy, that's also a vibration. That's why you click with your therapist or not. When the therapist is very in touch with his or her presence, then they also transmit and emanate a certain vibration and make you feel okay. 

Emily Y. Wu: In your book you talked about the importance of eating well. In your early days as an international student, you ate on the cheap. You didn't realize the harm that it was doing to your body. You also talked about the wisdom of “don't eat while angry”, because you're eating toxic. Talk to us about that.

Mimi Yu: I used to eat to save money, which really is just a scarcity mindset. I didn't have the abundance mindset. I know my parents were not well off, and they put so much into my education. I wanted to save as much as I could. So I stopped the school meal plan. I would sometimes bag lunches and eat leftovers. And then the vending machine burger was like $1. 

So yeah, cumulatively, when you continue to make situations intolerable for your body, your body is going to retaliate one day. In traditional Chinese medicine, your stomach is actually very linked to your heart. And so when your stomach is not happy, you're not going to be that happy. You know, depression could come from having bad sleep, or not eating well [...] 

These days I really try to eat only permaculture, like Japanese Siomai, or farming products. I choose my products really well. This year I'm really going to not even eat out at restaurants. 

Emily Y. Wu: Wow.

Mimi Yu: It's hard in Taiwan because everything tastes so good, but you know, you can’t control outside kitchens. The best pharmacy is your kitchen. There's a big push now in the West about ultra-processed foods. Can't believe I'm talking about it, I'm not even a dietitian. But I always look at ingredients from the market, and if they have any additives. 

Emily Y. Wu: You hold online sessions with students from around the world who come to you just wanting -

Mimi Yu: For balance [...]

Emily Y. Wu: They see you as a high-performing individual with an incredible past and with so much experience now to offer to others who are on a similar path. What do you tell them?

Mimi Yu: A lot of the courses center on the well-being of our body, then our mind. We have breathing classes, standing meditation, sitting meditation, music healing, and eating diets. There's Taoist philosophies behind that. 

I try to help my students get rid of emotional toxins [...] 

As I teach I also learn. One student - I was so moved by her - she said it was almost like a calling. When she came to class, she was suffering from a very bad skin rash. She said after the class wrapped up, she was in deep pain, and then they cured. I don’t think the classes have anything to do with her cure, because there are many causes and conditions. But I know that once you come back to your body, and decide to really be with the body, and take care of yourself, then miraculous things do happen. In her case, she was trying to express gratitude. But I told her, the deep gratitude really goes to yourself. You chose to come to the class. You chose to do the practice. You chose to love yourself. The body will love you back and show whatever it is that you want to manifest.

I am not a didactic person, I just trust that when they come to me, there's a reason. There's beauty in every person we meet. So when they come to me, there must be a reason. I am here to support and to love. Sometimes that love awakens the deep love they have for themselves inside. When that happens, healing happens [...]

Emily Y. Wu: You also prescribe your students with classical music? 

Mimi Yu: Oh yes, different kinds of music actually, based on what they need at the time. I also record different meditation segments for them. Breathing meditation. A lot of the feedback I've gotten is that people really like my voice, and that's sort of shocking to me. Sometimes they would say, they came to class and they didn't hear anything, they just fell asleep. I said, “That's great!”

Emily Wu: Why is it shocking that they like your voice? 

Mimi Yu: Because for so long I was playing an instrument. I was not a singer, so the healing voice is a new theme for me. But I’m appreciating their comments, and I’m very happy to continue to teach and send a vibration through my voice, in addition to the cello.

Emily Y. Wu: You don't advertise these classes.

Mimi Yu: The book sort of speaks about that. I felt the Buddhist, Taoist philosophies really helped my transformation. In the Taoist disciplines, we don't go and seek things. Things come to you like waves in the ocean. They're going to come. You just stay present, and stay happy and joyful. And things start to manifest [...]

Emily Y. Wu: I wanted to turn the chapter to the topic of trailing spouses [...] You had to go to China because your husband’s job moved the two of you there [...] 

Mimi Yu: [...] I am married, and I was lucky that I met my husband when I was at Harvard, we were long-time friends. But even for that situation, I had such difficulty adjusting to my new identity as a wife. I’d been so used to running my own show. I feel like, I'm a great cellist, I travel, and I get to call the shots. And how come now, there's another person, and I have to adjust. Then some of the values that we grew up with, teach women to behave in a certain way, which certainly I as a free spirit cannot totally adhere to. So it took a lot of time to come to understand what it means to be in a partnership, which the Chinese is 隨順 (going with the flow). The word has such deep, transformative meaning. I continue to learn every day from that. 

I didn’t have that when I first got married. I wanted to fight my husband, I wanted to fight everything in life. It probably also had to do with that I went to the US when I was so young, and I had to fight for myself in everything, in order to survive. So I had this deep-seated pattern that I needed to fight, to survive. To go with the flow is a different kind of life philosophy. It's not passive. It’s to learn how to use the things that are happening around you [...]

It's never the external situation. It's always the internal workings of your mind who's hurting you. It's not your mom, it's not your dad. It's not your husband, it's not your children. It's not your colleague, it's your mind. And so in my own practice, to get out of depression and to see clearly the inner workings of your mind is a huge exercise [...] 

It takes endless practice, but that's how I got out of the struggle. 

Then once you get the hang of it, you'll realize that a lot of the relationships in your life will start to flow better. Because the quality of our life is really the quality of our relationships, Esther Perel says that. [...] And then from there, you have a great relationship with your body, your health, your friends, society, and nature. Taoism talks about the great, harmonious relationship with nature [...]

I think a lot of the deep internal work that I just talked about, it may sound easy because I'm just here blah, blah, but it took so many painful years. I cannot begin to tell you the amount of suffering that I was in and how difficult it is to learn these things. It really takes time, so I want to remind everyone to be very patient and loving with yourself, and know that help and love is all around you. When you're ready, help is there. 

Emily Y. Wu: Anything else you wanted to add?

Mimi Yu: Just be very loving. So when you say be loving to yourself - if you’ve never experienced or received unconditional love, sometimes it's hard to know what loving means. And I believe that a lot of people in the boomer generation, because they just came out of the traumas of the war, they - like my parents - probably didn't receive a lot of love from their parents. And their parents didn't get any love from their parents, because everyone was war obsessed. 

Then it's really hard to give. Because how can you give something that you never received? 

But I would then say, make yourself comfortable. In any situation, first come back to you and think about how you can make yourself comfortable. This is not selfish. This is about maintenance and great caretaking. [...]

Just constantly check in and see, how can I make my day a little better today? How can I make myself more comfortable? Like right now, I'm sitting in this chair talking with Emily, my entire being is extremely comfortable. I can feel my butt, I can feel my hands, I can feel my neck, I can feel my relaxed posture. Constantly check in with yourself and make sure that you're comfortable.

Emily Y. Wu: Is there a piece of music that you can suggest us to listen to? 

Mimi Yu: That's a great idea. I was just in Vienna and I loved the Strauss Waltzes there. For the new year enjoy some Waltzes everyone. 

Emily Y. Wu: Thank you so much [...]

Mimi Yu: Thank you. Yeah, the pain when I was younger, I always sort of hoped that everything I had to go through wouldn't be in vain. That one day it could help someone else, because we are all connected in the end. When you're vibrating on a very high frequency, others around you will also vibrate. If we're all vibrating on a very high frequency, then our entire world, and our entire society, will be much better off. Right now, we're heading towards a tumultuous era of human history, but if we all remember that we're all connected and vibrating together, then things would be better.

This episode is produced by Emily Y. Wu. Zack Chiang is our production coordinator. Editing by Wayne Tsai. Transcription by Jonathan Montiel.