(The transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.)

Luke Martin: I'm very happy to be here today, partly because I'm not a Boston Pro. I am embarrassed to say I've only visited one time; it was a great visit. I have a lot of Boston historical background knowledge, and it's part of my growing up. So I love being here because I'm going to have questions for you and hear what it was like studying there and living there.

Chai Lee: Happy to share. I'm no expert on Boston myself, but I did go to school there cumulatively for six years as an international student.

Luke Martin: So did you choose Boston because it was Boston? Or because it was home to Wellesley and Harvard?

Chai Lee: I feel like when people apply for college they rarely pick a location as their first factor. I think a couple things I thought about, at my tender young age of 17 at the time, was the quality of the school, and then the level of financial aid because U.S. schools are very expensive. So, Wellesley it was. Also my dad was super pro-Wellesley because it's an all-women's college.

Luke Martin: Exactly.

Chai Lee: Plus, Madame Chiang Kai Shek (Soong Mayling, var. Soong Mei-ling) went there so there's that kind of Taiwan pride element to it. As for Harvard — where I attended business school — business school is a $100,000 investment, I needed to go to the top schools for it to be worthwhile as an investment ROI. So I only applied to Stanford and Harvard. I only got into Harvard, so Harvard it was.

Luke Martin: Before you went to Boston, what was your preconception of what Boston was?

Chai Lee: Red Sox, I guess? Is it gonna be really cold?

Luke Martin: And was it really cold?

Chai Lee: It was. I think it was mostly I was very cold. I grew up all over Southeast Asia - I grew up in Taiwan, but I also spent time in the Philippines as well as Singapore. When I was very little, I was in Libya, so I've always only known the tropics.

I have to admit, winters in Boston were pretty challenging. They were just very long. The days were dreary. So I got a sun lamp just to find a way to manage.

Luke Martin: Right, the seasonal affective disorder.

So for me, what's the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Boston? For me it was all sports. It was Boston Bruins, Bobby Orr - No. 4, best defenseman of all time. And that's partly because I grew up in Canada and hockey was a big thing. So for me, it was sort of what Boston was all about.

How did you feel as a Taiwan student there?

Chai Lee: Wellesley in particular was very diverse. I think Asians accounted for like 30% of the student population. I was exposed to Asian activism, which was very interesting.

Because having grown up in Asia myself, I just always thought, “If you're Asian, you're just Asian.” But, for my Asian-American friends, they wrestle with and think a lot about their dual identity. Ethnically they're Asian, but they were born and they grew up in the U.S., so they've considered themselves very much American. So that was an interesting aspect.

Luke Martin: How did that change you afterward as you thought about your identity and what you bring back to Taiwan?

Chai Lee: For me it's more developing a third-culture-kid mentality of cultural fluency and fluidity - which I think is more common now. But at the time, it was definitely something I had to learn.

Taking food as an example, when I first arrived, I stayed with a host family. I landed in Boston with two suitcases. My family didn't come with me. So I had a host family to help me get accustomed to the first few days.I was so shocked to see the mom, she just poured soup out of a box and heated it up - and that was lunch. I just didn't see that ever before. In Taiwan, or in my family, every meal is cooked from scratch. So, things like that just showed me: “Wow, it's just really different here.”

Now, of course, as a working mom, I've come to appreciate the conveniences afforded by these products. But yeah, that was just one example of: “Wow, this is gonna be a very different experience.”

Luke Martin: Maybe that's one thing we could talk about is: food in Boston. What your experience was.

Chai Lee: My favorite memories was, there was a lobster day in college where everyone got all-you-can-eat lobster.

Luke Martin: Did they dress up as lobsters or is there anything to make it into a real celebration?

Chai Lee: That would’ve been a good idea.

Luke Martin: Because then you would really know it's lobster day.

Chai Lee: But that was cool. Because in Taiwan, the only time you eat lobster is in the form of soup, like gelatinous soup. There it's like a whole lobster.

I liked the desserts there, Mike's Pastry. They started with one shop but they have a few locations now. They have great cannoli, started by an Italian guy (Michael Mercogliano).

Luke Martin: That is a big part of where, watch a movie like The Departed, really talks about some of that heritage there ethnically and culturally. Italian, Irish.

Chai Lee: For an Asian student who misses home, going to Super 88, the Asian supermarket, is a must. Just go in there to buy the things you might want to cook at home yourself like dumplings, soy sauce, whatnot.

Luke Martin: Xiao Long Bao.

Chai Lee: And there's Chinatown. In Boston, which you can go and get boba.

So, apparently, boba is like a huge thing now, taking over the U.S..

Luke Martin: It certainly has for sure. So at this point, maybe we can eat some food. How about that?

So in front of us here we have some New England Clam Chowder. What immediately struck me is that there's this issue of what's the difference between New England Chowder and San Francisco, or Bay Area Chowder.

I always thought it was the bread bowl. In San Francisco, you got... is it Boudins? The sourdough. You go down to Pier 39 and they have that. For me, I loved the sourdough so much. And then I realized, this soup is fantastic as well.

This here, it looks like a regular chowder, roux-based, nice, and creamy. I actually don't know if there's a difference in taste between Boston and San Francisco, do you?

Chai Lee: I will say though, that the bread bowls were twice the size of this bread bowl here in front of us.

Luke Martin: This is a little baby bowl. It's okay. It's nice. It's tasty. There's a smooth taste to it. Salty, not too salty. A little bit of oil, maybe olive oil, I guess they're using?

Chai Lee: Do they add celery?

Luke Martin: You're right, traditionally there's celery.

Chai Lee: That’s what gives it umami, right?

Luke Martin: Really? Is that how you get the umami from celery?

Chai Lee: When I cook on my own, which is not very frequently —

Luke: Do you use Uber Eats a lot?

Chai Lee: Oh, yeah. I live on it.

Luke Martin: So, that's how you get a umami, though.

Chai Lee: I think as a working mom it's a must.

Yeah. So celery essence or celery powder, it's sometimes a thing in recipes.

Luke Martin: Oh goodness. I didn't even know that. Okay, I'm going to try this little clam.

Chai Lee: I feel like you could be a food commentator.

Luke Martin: I couldn't actually. I don't know if you've ever been, the Taipei Fish Market over in Zhongshan. I love going there and picking out some of the fresh food, and you can have them cook it up for you too.

Chai Lee: You mean the one near Aquatic Addiction?

Luke Martin: Exactly. So there's potato in this too, which is nice. Let's see how that potato is cooked.

Chai Lee: The cool thing about this that it can be a meal on its own because it has protein. It has starch, carbs, and it has fat.

Luke Martin: Oh, and you know, as a working mom, this would have been good for you because you don't have any dishes afterwards, you just eat the dishes, right?

Chai Lee: You just eat the bread bowl. I wonder what people do with the bread after they —

Luke Martin: You eat it!

Chai Lee: They take it out of the bread bowl.

Luke Martin: Oh, that inside. Maybe you make a stuffing with it, or you could make croutons.

Chai Lee Speaking of stuffing, I don't think people drink clam chowder, like during Thanksgiving dinners. I didn't really recall that experience. It's more like an everyday thing.

Well, random question. Have you had the clam chowder in Costco?

Luke Martin: No. Seriously?

Chai Lee: Yeah, it's a staple. Along with what they sell, you know, pizza, and —

Luke Martin: Yeah, the giant slices of pizza. So I would actually put some black pepper in. But it's nice. I think I just generally like a little bit of more spice.

Chai Lee: I wonder if people ever done kind of clam chowder fusion?

Luke Martin: What would you put it in? As a mom, what are you going to put in so your kids are going to eat it?

Chai Lee: I was thinking of Vietnamese Sriracha.

Luke Martin: Sriracha would be perfect, honestly. Like any hot sauce on this.

Chai Lee: Yeah, for that kick.

Luke Martin: And I think you could use other fish in this as well. And you can put chicken in anything, right?

Chai Lee: No, that's sacrilege. It’s a clam chowder.

Luke Martin: What else do you remember eating in Boston?

Chai Lee: So as a poor student, sometimes I would just venture out of the campus. There's this really good Thai place walking distance from Wellesley. It's called Blue Ginger. It's shut down now. But it was there forever.

Luke Martin: I love Thai food. You can't go wrong with Thai food. How do you feel that being, you lived as an expat in Southeast Asia with your family and then in the US. How has that impacted how you cook now?

Chai Lee I'm not a great cook, so –

Luke Martin: You’re supposed to — this is a chance to really shine. You can say, “Oh, my husband says I'm the best cook.”

Chai Lee: I wish, but you know, I optimize for ease.

I think Western cooking is a lot easier than traditional Taiwanese cooking.

Luke Martin: Timewise or because…?

Chai Lee: Timewise. Because traditional Taiwanese cooking, it takes a lot of time to prep... a lot of cutting. And also the garlic. It just takes forever. And then Western, I think you just pop something in the oven. It's like a one-dish meal, and then you're done.

Taiwanese food, there's always like... you need three dishes. But all of them are wok-based, right?

Luke Martin: That's right. Well, if you have one burner…

Chai Lee: Yeah, so you have to do it in succession.

Luke Martin: So I love this idea that there is an American food, and you just described - somebody putting a casserole in the oven. Is that what American food kind of feels like to you?

Chai Lee: Baking I think is a big element that I miss. Because —

Luke Martin: Because you don't have a - Do you have an oven?

Chai Lee: No, I don’t. Most places here don't come with an oven.

So I think baking is a big element. And the various peppers and spices. I think that's a little harder to find here.

Luke Martin: I'm lucky I have an oven, so I do a lot of baking bread and pizza here. Actually, it was kind of funny, I had some of my colleagues over and taught them how to make bread, how to bake bread. And they all loved it.

So, one of my thing with Boston, you ever heard of Boston Pizza, the chain?

Chai Lee: No, I haven’t.

Luke Martin: So I thought, obviously, that's got to come from Boston. But it's actually a Canadian franchise that came out of Edmonton in 1964, founded by a Greek immigrant ( Gus Agioritis). But I think there's a tendency to put "Boston" on it if you want to make it hearty, fresh, and maybe differentiate it from New York.

Little trivia for you next time you see a Boston Pizza, it's actually Canadian.

Chai Lee: Wow. I didn't know that.

Luke Martin: The other very Boston thing would be Boston Cream Pie. Do you remember eating it?

Chai Lee: I don't recal super specifically.

Luke Martin: Me neither. But I have this funny feeling, you're not sure if it's pie or its cake? It's covered. There's cream on the inside. And it's really delicious.

Chai Lee: It's interesting what you mentioned about New York. I think Boston is kind of like a cousin to New York, or maybe like a laid-back cousin to New York.

From a career perspective, Boston certainly is a feeder into New York. Study in Boston, and then go intern or work in New York. That was very common. New York is only a four-hour bus ride away and an even shorter flight away. Even I, myself, so I interned for a summer on Wall Street in New York.

It's kind of like, if you don't like the intensity of New York, but you still want the East Coast experience, then you can stay in Boston.

Luke Martin: It's interesting. I had a conversation with someone who's comparing schools in Brooklyn, and then Boston. She's very torn, because how do you compare those two places? New York and Boston really are different, the energy is so different between the two of them.

Chai Lee: Totally. So if you want that as your college experience, that's great. But I know that there are people who really want a campus experience, which is totally unique on its own. It is probably the only time in your life that you can get that experience.

And that's what you have in Boston, and especially in the schools I went to like Wellesley. We had a beautiful campus. Right next to a lake.

Harvard is in Cambridge, right next to the Charles River. I thought that was really special. And there's such a density of schools in that area. I was able to take classes at Harvard and at MIT during my time at Wellesley. There was just a lot of exchanges between the schools. I think that's super unique to Boston.

Luke Martin: It's kind of personally ironic where I just realized - my son just made a decision on college, and I asked him why he chose the one he did. It's because of the campus and the mascot.

Chai Lee: The mascot?

Luke Martin: He thought it was a cool mascot. So he decided that. So I guess sometimes you make decisions on what feels good. And certainly campuses are a very appealing place to be to make your decision off of that as well.

Chai Lee: Yeah. Wellesley doesn't have a mascot. It has a color.

Luke Martin: Blue.

Chai Lee: So we’re called Wellesley Blue. Go blue.

Luke Martin: Yeah, that's a questionable mascot for sure. I'm not sure how you can get too excited about the color.

Chai Lee: You can choose Wellesley for the motto, which I still remember. It's just a sentence. It's like:

“To serve and not to be served.” (Non Ministrari sed Ministrare.)

So I think that's the spirit of the school.

Luke Martin: That's nice. I like that.

Chai Lee: What I really appreciated about it is just how visible female leadership is. Just because it's an all-women's college, right? So it has a lot of women's professors, the dean is a woman, etc.

Luke Martin: So how did that inspire you? You're a businesswoman who's very focused on leading a leading company here in Taiwan. Is that part of what you saw when you were there that led you down that path?

Chai Lee: Yeah, it normalized that for me. I think that's the biggest takeaway.

Luke Martin: That's a great word: normalized it for you.

Chai Lee: So after four years there, gender isn't even really a thing. It's just a given that, “Yeah, you'll have a career and build a family.”

I just saw so many role models.

It's only when I left school that I realized: “Oh, that's not really a given.” A lot of women don't have those role models, and they, they’re seeking that.

Luke Martin: Bringing up Uber and Uber Eats itself was one reason I wanted to talk to you. There's two things I'd be fascinated to hear from.

The first one is, how the pandemic changed your business model and impacted the business. The second, I had this idea: how is Uber Eats in the future going to impact food itself? Everybody's ordering on Uber Eats, so how does that change how restaurants and innovators think about the food that they make?

But on that first one, how did the pandemic change your business and change your life? I imagine you didn't have a lot of sleep during that time.

Chai Lee: We were definitely very busy. When I joined Uber Eats five years ago, it was a very nice-to-have service. Out of my 10 friends, at best one used it. And then we just grew and grew.

In the pandemic, I think the biggest change was, we were declared an essential service by the government. So it really went through this evolution of, “this is like a premium thing that I can use to give myself some time back,” to “We need this to survive”.

Because during the pandemic, there's so much hesitance and even guidelines against going out, right? So in the pandemic, we actually saw a much larger number of grocery merchants come on board. Historically, we were just all about restaurants. But during the pandemic, people were hesitant to go grocery shopping even. We also brought on board wet markets, which was really quite innovative for us.

It's actually really operationally complex to do that, because a wet market has so many stalls, right? So, how do you…

Luke Martin: And they deal with cash. A lot of that is cash-based.

Chai Lee: We had to work out how to disperse the funds to each stall merchant. So that was one big change.

I think even grocery stores started to sell, not just fresh produce, but more ready-to-eat things that you can quickly prepare at home.

Luke Martin: Just like that boxed tomato soup that you talked about earlier, right?

Chai Lee: Exactly. And the last thing is: we saw restaurants start to sell also, groceries themselves. So like, a dumpling restaurant would sell frozen dumplings. So they'll be making those versions just so that we can make customers' lives easier.

Luke Martin: So you're seeing this frozen prepared foods coming out of restaurants themselves, which is an interesting innovation when they think people aren't going to order Uber Eats every day, but maybe they'll double up the order, because then they can heat this up in some way too.

Do you think it's going to change? This is so speculative, but is it going to change how we eat or how we think about food? How we create food in the future?

Chai Lee: It's a great question. I think innovation, in terms of kitchen operations, I think is one thing that we see. The rise of cloud kitchens, dark kitchens, which improves their unit economics, to be honest.

Another interesting trend is the healthy bentos. One thing that we've learned as we try to understand our customers is - food delivery has enabled people to eat healthier.

Luke Martin: Because it used to be the snack. It's going to be pizza, which you can’t eat every single day. But if you have healthy options, it's a little different.

Chai Lea: And it's easy to access healthy bentos now, whereas previously if you were confined to going out within your walking radius, it really wasn't as common.

Luke Martin: That's a really good point because I think that sort of reputation of takeout food is more on the maybe caloric-rich and fat-heavy, things that you're going to get when you're stressed out. But this has become a part of life during the pandemic. And that certainly changes ingredients and the types of foods you have.

Chai Lee: Yeah, and as a company, our vision is to “deliver a better day”. It's a vision that globally, we honed in on during the pandemic.

There are a few elements to it. One element is delivery gives you time back. Time that you would have otherwise had to spend preparing a meal or going out to get stuff. And with that time back, you can become a better version of yourself by investing that time and things that you care about, whether it's your family, whether it's in your health, whether it's in hobbies, and whatnot.

And then I think there is an aspiration down the road from our product team to incorporate more health-related elements to help you make smarter choices. So including having caloric or nutritional information on the menus to help you better gauge what you want.

Luke Martin: Yeah.

Chai Lee: Another interesting trend, and also something that we are beginning to focus more on is sustainability.

Luke Martin: Do you mean from the product perspective or materials? What do you mean by sustainability?

Chai Lee: Yeah, spot on. So two key themes here. One is packaging, and the other is on carbon emissions, so on the part of delivery partners.

So these are two big things that we want to tackle in the long run. We're starting to make some progress towards it, but these are kind of huge multifactorial problems that really require cross-functional collaboration, internally and externally. But we do have a vision to be 100% electrified by 2040, I think.

Luke Martin: That's interesting. You must have different data coming from Taiwan because of the use of scooters, for instance, these are scooters rather than cars.

Chai Lee: Yeah, that's super insightful. Actually, Taiwan is leading the world in terms of electric vehicles. It's also a testament to our Taiwanese government.

So right now, 15% of our delivery partners use an electric scooter. And almost 20% of our orders are delivered using electric vehicles. And that is like by far within kind of Uber globally, we're like the leader in that.

Luke Martin: That's great.

Chai Lee: And so we would love to continue to make progress on that.

Luke Martin: When you think about your education in the United States, how did it prepare you for what you're doing now? How did it set you up and kind of differentiate you when you’re in an interview and someone says-

Chai Lee: If I think about my biggest takeaway from both Wellesley and Harvard. Wellesley, it's just normalizing women leadership. So just giving me that confidence.

And then I think Harvard, so, Harvard Business School is super unique for its case method. That's what it's famous for; i.e. no homework. So we never had to do problem sets. We never had to write essays, all we needed ever to do was to read the cases. But we need to come to each class ready to participate. So classes are never lecture style, it was always “you need to raise your hand, speak your mind, give your opinion”. And you're actually graded on how much you participate and how well you participate.

So I think that really simulates a boardroom, and I think that gave me the confidence to be vocal about my opinions in a group setting.

Luke Martin: I can see that confidence you would get in having all these peers around you and sharing your ideas, being brave enough to do that certainly works in your business today. That's what you need.

Chai Lee: I was terrible at it to begin. My upbringing was more, be a bit more conservative, But there, I had no choice, you're just forced to put yourself out there. It's basically two years of that training.

Luke Martin: That's great. I've heard that too, with U.S. education the real key for employers is having employees that are creative, they're brave, they'll even disagree with their bosses as part of the dynamic of working. I do think that's valuable. That's what creates growth and innovation as well.

Chai Lee: For sure. There’s definitely a cultural difference. I think I saw this interesting infographic on the size of the boss, comparing Chinese culture to German culture - as in how much authority the boss carries.

I think in traditional Asian culture, the boss is really big. But in that example, German culture, the boss is only slightly bigger and is almost treated as a peer.

But I think Uber is kind of in between. I think it aspires more to that egalitarian model. And that is also the culture I am trying to build within the team.

Luke Martin: I’ve only visited Boston once. A lot of my impression of Boston would be from history books and then from movies like The Departed. There's these Boston movies, "Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers", the car talk on NPR, Harvard Square they reported from. So I have like these ideas of what Boston is, but I think I need a tour guide like you to tell me: where do I go?

Chai Lee: I think Boston is super diverse. I would definitely take you to Newbury Street. It’s kind of an upscale street with a lot of boutiques.

Luke Martin: Okay, I'm not going to buy anything there but I still should go?

Chai Lee: Yeah. I once got a coat there. But I needed to alter my sleeve length, and just the alterations alone cost like $60 U.S. dollars. So that gives you a sense of Newbury Street. I wasn't able to afford anything until I became a working professional, so this was definitely not during my college years.

But you should definitely go. There's a great ice cream shop there called J.P. Licks. Fantastic ice cream. You can just get one and walk down the street.

Luke Martin: I love ice cream.

Chai Lee: And then just for contrast, I will take you to downtown, which is also right next to Chinatown and you can go get a Boba and probably get some dim sum.

Luke Martin: Awesome.

Chai Lee: So and then you will probably want to go to Harvard Square. Harvard has a lot of resources actually, they have concerts. Orchestral concerts are free to the public. And you can go to their libraries which are amazing. So, just kind of get that educational flavor in. And to just walk on the grounds of Harvard.

Luke Martin: I went for a nice bike ride along the harbor, which was great, beautiful views out there. It was lovely.

Chai Lee: Sspeaking of water, I would recommend you go sailing on the Charles River. Or you could go on a jog along the Charles River, which is always really beautiful.

Luke Martin: Maybe the most famous would be Fenway Park. Have you been?

Chai Lee: Clearly, you're super passionate about sports, so that would be a must for you. And then maybe the last thing would be, Boston has these beautiful brownstone buildings just in the residential areas. I think I would just go and kind of soak it all in. It has such heritage and history. I think that's something that is so unique to New England.

Luke Martin: If I can ask you a personal question, I'm going to give you three names and you have to say among them who would most represent Boston? Ready? These are significant historical figures:

Mark Wahlberg. Matt Damon. Ben Affleck.

Chai Lee: Wow. Okay.

I'll probably choose Matt Damon. Because of his character in Good Will Hunting. It was also set in the Boston area.

Luke Martin: So, Chai, what does Boston mean to you?

Chai Lee: I would love to also talk about just a personal story of how I got baptized in Boston.

Luke Martin: In the harbor itself?

Chai Lee: No, not in the harbor. It was just like a sprinkling thing. But yeah, I think Boston, just the whole area is very formative for me. I went to school there twice. And right before I returned to Taiwan, that's also where I was baptized and I became a Christian. I was part of a fellowship on campus. So I've always wanted to bring my family back to Boston and show them around, just “Hey this is where mom grew up. This is where I had probably some of my lowest moments in my life, but also where I really grew the most.”

For you would you say these educational seasons are quite formative relative to your working seasons?

Luke Martin: Yes. What I'm realizing is that they're also formative for the parent, because I'm sending number four off to college now. So it's definitely formative for these kids. You're learning about who you are and who you relate with. And chances are, you're going to maybe find a partner. Everything about it is transformative.

Chai Lee: And I feel like the magic of a city is, there's definitely the tourist aspects, right? Which includes the food, the sights. But the true magic is really in the experiences and the people that you share those experiences with when you're there.

I am a big champion for Boston. It may not be the most flashy city from a tourist perspective, but it really is just so rich in culture and diversity, and also the fact that it's a college town where there's so much energy, and so much idealism, which comes with it so much possibility. Being a college town there's this idealism, and this hope, that permeates the atmosphere. That's really special.

Luke Martin: I'm excited because this summer I'm going to go visit a good friend of mine who lives in Boston, and I will take some of this. So thanks, Chai. It was really nice speaking with you.

Chai Lee: Great chatting with you, too. Luke. Thank you.

This episode is produced by Emily Y. Wu. Teresa Yen is our production coordinator and editor. Our editing assistant is Gerald Williams. Engineering supervisor is Dino Lin. Graphics by Logan Dosher. Thanks to Chloe Ramond and Mikey Redding for assisting.